Monday, September 21, 2009

If It Quacks Like a Duck

President Obama argued on TV talk shows this weekend that his proposed mandate for everyone to buy health insurance - or face a large financial penalty - is not a tax increase:

In a testy exchange on ABC's "This Week," broadcast Sunday, Obama rejected the assertion that forcing people to obtain coverage would violate his campaign pledge against raising taxes on middle-class Americans.

"For us to say you have to take responsibility to get health insurance is absolutely not a tax increase," Obama said in response to persistent questioning, later adding: "Nobody considers that a tax increase."

Well, I consider it a tax increase, so I guess that makes me nobody.

The real question is whether this tax increase is a good idea. My answer is no. If others disagree, then fine, let's have that debate. But denying plain truths suggests that advocates of Obamacare are trying to pass something that Americans would not endorse if it were structured and explained clearly.

23 comments:

Justin Kraus said...

According to Webster's dictionary (perhaps not the best tax authority but nevertheless) Obama's proposed demand that everyone buy health insurance is not technically a tax because the money with which you pay for that insurance is not usually, or at least not necessarily, going to the government for "public purposes" but to a private insurance company.
Nevertheless, I pretty much agree that it is a distinction without a real difference and an all around bad idea to penalize people who decide not to buy health insurance. In way I find this approach to be a bigger infringement on my personal freedom than a completely nationalized healthcare system would be. At least in that case the government is giving me something instead of forcing me to do something.

Steve M. said...

how about this definition of tax... "to make difficult or excessive demands upon"...

Fady said...

ABC is getting uppity. Bet He won't appear there next time. ABC and FOX to the corner and face the wall please.

Fady said...

@Justin: Does excise tax on your car qualify as a tax? How about Tobacco tax? Gasoline tax that is hidden as part of the price?

As Jeff said, if it quacks...

clifton said...

It would be child abuse to refuse to buy clothes or food for your children, and you could be hauled off to jail. Yet if I buy a box of Wheaties, I'm not being taxed by General Mills.

Does this really strike anyone as debatable? Am I a crazed lefty for thinking that there's a difference between paying a company for its product and paying the government a tax?

@Fady: a gasoline tax, while hidden in the cost of the gas, is payed to the government. When you buy something, whether cereal or insurance, the money goes to the seller.

Anonymous said...

@clifton...if you grow your own food, and make your own clothes, and had to pay General Mills for something you don't want, or need, it's a Tax.

Anonymous said...

Everyone needs health insurance. If you don't have it and get sick, WE (the taxpayers) have to pay. So the question remains - how do we get the people that do not have health insurance insured? Or should we just stick with the present system?

The fact of the matter is that the left wants EVERYONE to have healthcare coverage for little or no money (unless you are "rich" then you pay dearly) - whereas the right wants.... what does the right want anyway?

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous @ September 23, 2009 6:42 PM,

True enough, if people w/o insurance and w/o the ability to pay for serious care get sick (most people w/o insurance cannot pay for serious care) then WE have to pay for them. So is the argument that it will be cheaper when everyone has insurance, or is the argument that it will be even more expensive than it is now, but that it is a moral imperative to give everyone insurance, therefore we're obligated to pay the extra cost? If it's the latter, well there's really nothing to argue about, as moral imperatives are not something we can really argue over. But if the assertion is the former (that it will be cheaper when everyone has insurance) then I guess I'm unconvinced.

I mean, not everyone gets sick all the time... so while it's true that it is more expensive to provide ER care for an *individual* when compared to what we might call "preventative care," I'm not sure it follows that it's less expensive to have *everyone* get health care at an earlier stage. If we're comparing apples to apples, it seems like we should compare the consumer behavior (for lack of a better term) of all the people who are currently uninsured now, to the consumer behavior of their future selves once they have insurance, rather than just looking at the ones who are going to the ER this year or next year or what have you. Many of the uninsured aren't at the ER, but at home, with either no pressing medical needs or a subjective belief that their needs can't be met (and this may very well be a warranted belief).

I'm not a budget expert, nor am I a fervent opponent of reform, but I have the suspicion that the argument from the left about ER care doesn't pan out, once all things are considered.

But I'm open to being shown what I'm missing.

Jay J

Anonymous said...

Clifton's analogy is flawed. Actually, it's not even his analogy - he copied it. Nonetheless, here's the flaw. Food and clothing are necessities that a parent is expected to provide for a child and while one can argue that a parent is responsible for providing healthcare for a child, such an assumption does not imply that the parent must utilize insurance to pay for that healthcare.

Paying the government (a third party that is clearly NOT the seller of the health care product) so that the government can determine what healthcare my child gets or doesn't get and purchasing it from some provider it determines is qualified is not the equivalent of me directly purchasing the food or clothing I choose form the seller I choose at the price I choose.

clifton said...

@Anonymous: You say "Paying the government . . . is not the same . . ."

Well, thats one reason that it's a bit silly to call this a tax. There's no paying the goverment involved.

In fact, if one wants to convince a liberal that this whole health care reform is a bad idea, it's precisely this not paying the government that one should emphasize. (e.g. say things like "Big business has corrupted this country beyond recognition. And now their lobbyists are about to pass a law mandating that you turn over your income to health insurance companies even as these companies make billions in profit. Are you going to stand for that?" )

clifton said...

@Anonymous: One more thing. At the end of your post you seem to suggest that buying a product regulated by a government agency is always a form of tax.

You will find, upon reflection, that you don't really mean that.

For instance, when you walk into a grocery store, you don't get to buy any food that some might want to sell. You only get to select from foods that are regulated and approved by the FDA. But it would be nuts to insist that all purchases of food are a form of tax.

Anonymous said...

...and if the FDA demanded you buy the food it regulates, or pay a penalty, then it'd be a tax. Clifton, this is a very simple concept, you're being purposefully obtuse. Do you have incentive to make people believe this is not a tax?

Anna said...

A tax "is not a voluntary payment or donation, but an enforced contribution, exacted pursuant to legislative authority" and is "any contribution imposed by government […] whether under the name of toll, tribute, tallage, gabel, impost, duty, custom, excise, subsidy, aid, supply, or other name." (from wikipedia)

Sounds like a tax to me.

Does it really matter what it's called anyway? It is what it is. The government is forcing you to pay for something you either can't or don't want to pay for because it's "for your own good".

jimbino said...

Those hundreds of thousands of us expatriate Amerikans sure will consider as a burdensome TAX the annual Obamafine imposed on us for not having insurance for medical care that will be totally unavailable to us overseas.

It is a canard that the costs of medical treatment for the uninsured are borne by the insured. Since 50 cents of every healthcare dollar spent in the USSA is spent by the Feds, it can be argued that any uninsured person who shows up for treatment has already paid half the cost. Furthermore, since the uninsured probably use far less medical care (think "healthy young male")than the typical insured, it can be argued that the it is the uninsured who actually subsidize the insured.

Those here who ignorantly assert that the insured subsidize the uninsured would be well advised to shut their traps until they have some evidence. That applies especially to Obama, of course.

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